kas
New Member
Posts: 2
|
Post by kas on May 18, 2009 18:13:14 GMT
green could confuse amb crew that a doctor was on site
|
|
|
Post by arealparamedic on May 19, 2009 13:06:57 GMT
Please take this as the constructive criticism it is supposed to be.
This is far from good debate, such comments as "the medic skills will come out of the bag regardless of Trust approval" scare me! As does the idea that someone thinks they are a medic when in fact they are not.
If this is the Cavalier attitude towards skills which are not to be practised then one does wonder what other Cavalier attitude this person takes to other matters!
No doubt some of you work in a skilled job, now how would you feel if someone with virtually no training came into your workplace claiming to be able to do your job for free? How would you feel if your workplace took these people on and then cut the number of qualified staff?
People's lives are put at risk by community responders as like it or not, they are replacing qualified ambulance crews. Where we used to have a cover point in our service, we now have a community responder. So the qualified response takes a lot longer to arrive.
Your AED and first aid training mean nothing to the MI patient who needs thrombolysis or a PPCI. Oxygen has been proven to offer no benefit and they can be told to take an aspirin themselves over the phone, so what do you bring to the party other than stopping the magic 8 minute clock?
Your arrival stops the clock and a qualified response is delayed due to your presence on scene. A qualified resource is removed from the area you are covering.
Community responders offer no benefit to patient care! You are supposed to respond to cardiac arrests only but some bright spark decided to use you to stop the clock on all jobs. Then some even brighter spark in Staffordshire decided to illegally equip you with more drugs than a Paramedic, provide you with half the training and expect you to treat people you are ill trained to qualify.
We are supposed to equip the man not man the equipment! You have all the gear but no idea and the lives of the Community you claim to support are put at risk by your presence.
|
|
|
Post by annandamide on May 19, 2009 17:29:12 GMT
I became a community responder on the understanding that I could possibly get a defib to a cardiac arrest in as shorter time as possible or protect an airway. (As I said in an earlier post, basic Dr ABC!) I live in a very rural area some distance from the nearest hospital and a black spot as far as ambulance cover goes.
I agree with you in many ways. I truly think if it weren't for responders the powers that be would be much more inclined to give us the amb. station in the nearby small town that has been talked about for some years, but never acted on.
I have an interest in first aid, and helping the community and I am always interested when sent to different calls, but do not agree that we should be going to them as a matter of course. I definitely agree that we can be sent to calls for the wrong reasons, (stopping the clock etc) and have objected on numerous occasions.
Ultimately, I believe, with all this talk of blue lights, uniform training, meds etc. As a CFR, we should do what was initially intended of us and if we want to further our skills join an organisation which doesn't threaten to reduce the need for cover by professional Ambulance crews.
|
|
|
Post by prontocab on May 19, 2009 23:08:34 GMT
Please take this as the constructive criticism it is supposed to be. This is far from good debate, such comments as "the medic skills will come out of the bag regardless of Trust approval" scare me! As does the idea that someone thinks they are a medic when in fact they are not. If this is the Cavalier attitude towards skills which are not to be practised then one does wonder what other Cavalier attitude this person takes to other matters! No doubt some of you work in a skilled job, now how would you feel if someone with virtually no training came into your workplace claiming to be able to do your job for free? How would you feel if your workplace took these people on and then cut the number of qualified staff? People's lives are put at risk by community responders as like it or not, they are replacing qualified ambulance crews. Where we used to have a cover point in our service, we now have a community responder. So the qualified response takes a lot longer to arrive. Your AED and first aid training mean nothing to the MI patient who needs thrombolysis or a PPCI. Oxygen has been proven to offer no benefit and they can be told to take an aspirin themselves over the phone, so what do you bring to the party other than stopping the magic 8 minute clock? Your arrival stops the clock and a qualified response is delayed due to your presence on scene. A qualified resource is removed from the area you are covering. Community responders offer no benefit to patient care! You are supposed to respond to cardiac arrests only but some bright spark decided to use you to stop the clock on all jobs. Then some even brighter spark in Staffordshire decided to illegally equip you with more drugs than a Paramedic, provide you with half the training and expect you to treat people you are ill trained to qualify. We are supposed to equip the man not man the equipment! You have all the gear but no idea and the lives of the Community you claim to support are put at risk by your presence. My sentiments exactly. We train long and hard, have to undergo scrutiny from the HPC, keep up a portfolio, demonstrate our skills and knowledge, constant updates and PGD's. When someone comes along and say's 'I want a Uniform and I want Blue Lights, but i don't want the rest of the stuff that goes with it' then they are viewed as glory hunters and wannabe's. CFR's are not registered, but it seems some firms want to give them drugs. Tech drugs, Ok, as tech's aren't registered, but they are governed by the trust they are with, and only use them on duty. The HPC wanted to register Techs as well, but as most firms now employ people to be Paramedic's, the tecj grade will eventually disappear (Sadly), So what happens then...... ......Maybe you'll want their old unifroms eh? Helping the community in your area as a volunteer is one thing, but wanting to be seen as a form of paramedic with extremely basic training and all the trimmings appears to be another...
|
|
|
Post by yulbrynner on May 20, 2009 9:35:48 GMT
The whole idea of CFRs having blue lights and uniforms, as I have expressed previously on this board scares the hell out of me.
As Co-ordinator of our group I think we have a bunch of level-headed volunteers that provide a small but valuable role within our local community. In a ideal world, as was mentioned to me when our group set up a couple of years ago, you should still be able to have a GP make house calls to residents, without a 4hr wait, or a manned Ambulance station nearby. The sad reality is that it doesn't happen either due to lack of funding or reluctance to pay out for the service.
The fact that this had been the case for so long in our area with no sign of change was what prompted me to set our group up. We cover a relatively rural yet largely populated area, which was a very large black spot for emergency service cover of any sort no matter how minor.
I know different groups and different regions run things differently and am horrified to hear some groups are administering drugs- this practice should be stopped overnight!
It is also true that on at least 1 occasion one of our members was used to "stop the clock". I was livid when I found out & our attached paramedic and myself voiced our displeasure with the powers that be.
I agree there are many types of calls we would be out of our depth with and in our group/area at least we are not sent to them - neither do we want to be. There are however some calls we can provide a valuable assistance to (Heart attack, cardiac arrest, breathing probs etc) and those are the ones we are more than happy to attend with the view of buying a few valuable minutes to both patient and crew.
Finally arealparamedic, if you have seen some of my other posts on here you will see I have no time for "wannabes" or "blue light boys" or what ever else you might want to call them. Although they are in the minority (in my local area at least) they are out there and they give the rest of us a bad name. If you have had bad experiences with CFRs in your area, the types of calls they attend or equipment they use, please rest assured we are not all cut from that same cloth. Our group at least is happy with the small but valuable role we play; we are not wannabe paramedics but dedicated volunteers with the utmost respect for you guys. We appreciate the pressure you are under and certainly are not trying to do you out of a Job. It is so tragic that this country continues to waste money on unworthy causes (premier league footballers does that ring any bells with you!) instead of pumping more of it into the health service, which unlike many other countries is still free in England! Until changes are made, enabling more professionals to be available to cover black spots, I for one will be happy to carry on in my volunteer capacity, happy with the small range of calls I can attend and not getting ideas above my station.
|
|
|
Post by Dave on May 27, 2009 13:02:06 GMT
Please take this post as it is intended, not as an angry response. I have been around the various forums for many years now and have heard just about every argument for blue lights. I also acknowledge the existence of forum trolls who publish posts about blue lights merely to divide the membership of sites. Whilst I do not suggest that this is the case here, I feel that we should stick to the very real business at hand, instead of fantasising about shing blue flashing lights.
My father died the week before I joined the Ambulance Service. There was no first responder scheme in the area. My family waited 46 minutes for an ambulance. In my job every week I see numerous cases where a CFR would have made a difference. This is why I established our group, which is staffed by both Paras, techs, and civilians.
It saddens me that there are still attitudes on both sides of the fence as this post has prompted. I am currently finishing my Para training, have served as an EMT for a number of years and run a responder scheme.
Reading comments such as "Community responders offer no benefit to patient care!" and "You have all the gear but no idea and the lives of the Community you claim to support are put at risk by your presence" are ill researched and poorly judged, and whilst I appreciate that the writers are entitled to an opinion, have no place in a forum such as this. They cannot claim to be constructive criticism of the schemes as they offer no real alternative or suggestion of improvement.
I have stated in other posts that CFR's in my local area, and I am not only talking about my own group, are well thought of and respected by the crews. Our rural responders play an IMPORTANT part in patient care. Having said this, they do not have the "bells and whistles" granted by other counties by way of extended drug regimes and blue lights. Indeed, most of the local responders would consider them to be a hinderance in the case of blue lights, and beyond their remit in the case of drugs. The county/counties in question have justified their actions and have in many cases had their responders re-equipped following the investigations, and I shall not be commenting further on the subject. Those of us that do not have those "facilities" available to us should continue what we are doing for the reasons that we hold as important.
True, we are often sent to jobs which fall outside the CFR remit, but very often, and it is here that our professional counterparts need to pay a bit more attention, the fact that SOMEONE has arrived to do something very often puts patients and families at ease until we can attend. It is not the fault of the responders that these jobs are outside their field of expertise, and until recently the AMPDS system was really quite generous with jobs such as DIB and Chest Pain! With increasing demand on the Ambulance Services the responders really do take the weight off us, and we need to appreciate them a bit more.
I can say this, I believe that patient care is our first and foremost concern, and I see it on every responder job that I attend.
Good press outweighs the bad press every day. There will always be a few bad apples on both sides of the fence. It is down to the rest of us to take the slack and make sure that we are seen to be professional.
I do, however see some of arealparamedics comments as being true. We need to understand that CFR's should never replace qualified medical care. Once qualified I will still not be able to stand a vehicle down from attending a job, and I appreciate why that is. We need to understand that we are here to supplement the service, and to do the job which we were created and allowed to do as a LOCAL response, with no need for blue lights.
I feel that the blue light posts should be closed here as on other forums. Green lights have always been for doctors, purple for Funeral Directors. We, as CFR's are a local response and should not need blue lights to get to jobs. (Plus the fact that after the hundreds of actual hours spent driving on blues in my day job every year I find that the siren is starting to affect my hearing!)
As I stated earlier, I am not aiming to criticise anyone, merely to answer some of the points raised. I would however ask that if points and statements are made that they are a little better researched, and offer some kind of constructive element. If this is not possible and you have no intent on being a CFR then Ambulance999 would be a better forum for you to read than this.
|
|
|
Post by marjar on May 27, 2009 14:47:03 GMT
Dave - absolutely spot on and good to see.
|
|
|
Post by annandamide on May 28, 2009 18:12:49 GMT
Thank you, a voice of reason. Beautifully put. Couldn't agree more. :-)
|
|
|
Post by yulbrynner on May 29, 2009 8:38:23 GMT
I concur !!!
|
|
|
Post by Admin on May 29, 2009 9:59:04 GMT
Thanks for the post Dave. However, I do not think that the post should be closed. If it was closed then responders across the country would not have the chance to read intelligent comments from informed sources such as youself. This is why we created the forum, obviously there are some people out there that want blue lights but from reading the posts made on this topic, they may well see the arguments and reasons against this now.
|
|
|
Post by medatrain999 on Jun 3, 2009 20:47:48 GMT
I have to say that this debate could go on forever.... AND EVER!!!
I'm a practicing HEMS paramedic and have been a paramedic for over 10 years. In this time, I have seen many patients benefit from CFR's skills. Those people out there who think that CFR's do not benefit patients... how would you feel if one turned up to YOUR family? Would you turn them away if a crew was 10 minutes away and they needed oxygen for instance?? I think not. At the end of the day, CFR's ARE NOT there to replace us highly skilled practitioners... like the Specials supplement the Regular Police Officers and the Retained Firefighters supplement the Whole-timers, CFR's supplement the Tech's and Paramedic's out there.
At the end of the day, we are ALL trying to prevent worsening and promote recovery... i.e. we are ALL heading in the same direction - to help our patients. We are some of us professionals insistent on putting these wonderful volunteers down??? They do a great job and we should encourage them to perfect' the skills they have been given. I agree there should be a limit on what they do, but let's help them provide the service and not ruin it.
|
|
shaun
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by shaun on Jun 21, 2009 20:46:56 GMT
I really agree, i dont think blue lights are the answer. However i think if the rest of the road users recognised us, it would really help when we are attending cardiac arrests. I thought maybe if we had our own beacon maybe a red one for example, other road users would recognise this colour as first responders and give way if safe to do so. It really is frustrating when you are in rush hour and a normal ETA of 4 mins, turns out to be 15mins!.
|
|
|
Post by ambobod on Sept 16, 2009 12:54:57 GMT
For continuities sake, and because there are currently two threads with reference to Blue lights, please see my response below to bring you all up to speed. We are currently being called in for our medicals and blood tests, which would be another cost to CFR Groups, or their members. Based on my recent diving medical this would cost approximately £65, and would not be available on the NHS.
"Just a note. Not wishing to be negative, but over the course of time, the green ight issue has been raised, and the concensus of opinion in many other forums and indeed legally is that the green light is for "Medics" i.e Doctors. It has been debated at length. Retro fitted "wig-wag" flashers are also illegal in the UK.
Whilst I agree with some of the sentiments posted here, and see my other posts, I think we should be concentrating more on patient care than debating this point. I follow the issues raised here, and indeed see that there is currently a petition on the Govt's No. 10 website to allow the use of B&T's.
A new consideration for you. FACT. From now, We (ambulance full time staff) are now to be re-tested every five years. We are also to be suspended fromk driving and re-tested every time we have a crash or minor scuffle (incredible if you consider some of the driving by other motorists that we experience!). How will this impact on CFR's if given the opportunity to use B&T's? It would certainly have a monetary impact, and WILL impact on insurances once they realise that you will have to requalify every five years.
For example.
You are a good driver. You have a crash whilst responding to a Red Call.
Even if it wasn't your fault, the service suspends you from driving until "They" (the service) can retest you, which stops you from responding.
This takes away the opportunity for you to be trained by a third party, unless you pay to be retested by them.
The only reason that we have got away without mandatory retesting until now was that we drive thousands of miles annually on Red Calls, and this alone was considered to be sufficient to maintain skill levels. Now with so many emergency service accidents (mainly bobbies, mentioned not as a slur, but factually, as the media prefer them!) mentioned in the press, the onus will fall on all of us to prove we are up to the job."
|
|
|
Post by 1 on Sept 21, 2009 6:57:36 GMT
Well if you were to put Emergency Lights on your car this would Make it an Official Emergency vehicle under the road traffic act 2005 vehicle lighting regulations. There for you would have to under-go Emergency Driving courses, Having to get a Grade AMP Driving Licence ( Ones that Police, Fire Service and Ambulance Service carry for High Speed Emergency's)Another point i should mention your insurance would rocket high!!
|
|
|
Post by ambobod on Oct 1, 2009 15:31:05 GMT
Well if you were to put Emergency Lights on your car this would Make it an Official Emergency vehicle under the road traffic act 2005 vehicle lighting regulations. Nope, this part is unfortunately far from the truth for many reasons. In addition to those reasons it needs to be taxed as an Ambulance too.
|
|