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Post by prontocab on May 4, 2009 0:02:34 GMT
Guys,
I've been looking at this forum as a guest, but have decided to join and post regarding these issues.
Firstly... Why?
Why do so many of you crave blue lights, sirens and a psuedo paramedic uniform?
Surely, if you want these things, it would be better to apply and hopefully join one of the Ambulance trusts near to you.
Or how about Joining St John? They may not do what the real paramedics do, but they do help in times of crisis, and are blue light trained (But only for times of crisis)
As a State Registered Paramedic, i look upon these posts and questions with some suspiscion. Wearing a uniform could be deceiving the patient that a qualified member of the ambulance service has turned up, not a CFR. This has certainly happened in my experience, and this assumption has not been corrected by the responders concerned. One example is as follows, Bedecked in their Green jump suits, with 'Duck tape' wrapped around their trouser legs, they were happy to go along with the patient and relatives assumption that these jokers were Paramedics. When we arrived, they even tried to see if we'd go along with it.
Fraid i passed on that one, and informed the relatives that we were the Paramedics.
So uniforms could serve to confuse the patient. Is this the aim? A uniform can give the impression you are more qualified than you are.
Blue lights are another bone of contention. Why do you want them so much? Is it the 'Starsky and Hutch Syndrome'? the problems associated with using blue lights are manyfold. Staff responders for the Ambulance service have had all sorts of problems, and these guys are qualified state registered paramedics, monitored by the HPC, and have undergone blue light training. Using them atop your car for responding can most certainly invalidate your insurance in a RTC, and the police won't be lenient in such cases. They aren't with professional blue light trained personnel. Having a badged vehicle also seems to serve to confuse. Once again, examples in the past have proved this. one particular scheme that did this certainly caused much consternation with the relatives of one particular individual as they thought the 'Paramedics' had arrived in their nice shiny response car, only to be told that they had to now wait for an Ambulance as all they could do was apply oxygen. Blue lights/batternburg vehicles can give the impression you carry more equipment, like an NHS trust Ambulance, than you actually do.
Such issues will only serve to confuse the public as to your role. Such posts only make proffessional crews think you are all wannabes, Walter Mittys in the making.
Now i know this doesn't apply to all of you, and no offence is meant, but you need to see it from a professional point of view.
Responder schemes exist due to the Government wanting to get a defib to a cardiac patient quicker. The Ambulance service was tasked with this, but no extra money was really forth-coming to achieve it. So instead of putting a paramedic on every street corner, they went fot the next best thing. Volunteers. Yourselves. Basic Defib and oxygen training meant the NHS could try and hit the targets the Government set, and at the cheap as well (You do volunteer). I'm not against these schemes, not one iota, but the fact is that there was never talk of uniform or blue lights when these schemes started. It just makes me draw the conclusion that some CFRs are starting to get ideas above their station and training and that is worrying. Now some people are sure to say that things have changed and they need these items, but all i can say is that on a local level, uniform and bluelights would be more confusing than helpful and could cause friction between ambulance crews and responders. As i post this, no schemes in my area wear uniform or have blue lights, and the relationship between the professionals and the volunteers is excellent. We all know how we can help the patient to the best of our abilities.
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Post by Admin on May 4, 2009 20:53:24 GMT
Hi Prontocab, first of all, thanks for joining. With regards to your comment as to CFR's "craving" blue lights and a uniform, I think that that is quite an exaggeration. It seems to me after reading the comments on Blue Lights that many CFRs do not think that Blue Lights are the answer. The concept was discussed because it is a forum and people like to know the opinions of others. I see nobody craving blue lights. With regards unifrom confusion etc, some uniforms can be confusing but some, such as our lines are all clearly labelled as community first responder. Specials and Retained Firefighters wear uniform so why not responders? HOwever, the most important task is educating the public as to what Frist Responders are though. To anybody that wishes to reply to this thread (and please do!!), please try to keep it as a debate and not an argument! And prontocab, thank you for your insights.
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Post by sunnyali on May 6, 2009 14:04:22 GMT
Hi
As a Radiographer I know how I would feel if someone tried to do my job for free, and without my training. However, with Responding I feel we can be of value in a community. It can take 8 minutes or longer to respond to a cardiac arrest by the ambulance, depending on where they are. I can get around our village much quicker, and have in one instance obtained a ROSC sometime before the crew arrived. Yes, it helps government targets, but we do it for the patients, and people in our community, not for politics. I do not drive on blues, I have to do my advanced driving course and also pass a 2 day blue light course in order to do that. However, in lanes with tractors etc moving slowly and reluctant to move I can see the value of the blue lights. As to uniform, ours is blue, and the public know who we are and what we do- we are part of the community. None of us has ever tried to tell a paramedic his job, and indeed most crews are supportive of us. We have had a few people who have joined us because they are blue light happy- they don't last. As soon as they get a nasty hard to deal with shout they are off! I know a fair few people I trained with who have gone on to become techs or paramedics becuae they like the work. I feel that again you must get people in the ambulance service who begin for the wrong reasons, and either go on to flourish or leave! I do believe the stats need to be done differently though, with a responder time and a crew time to respond, just so that the government cannot skew the stats. We are often desperately waiting for crew ourselves, and the reduction in stand by posts has been a bone of contention for many, including responders. If we save just one life though it will have been worth it. Most of us respond for purely alturistic reasons, and believe me, we can see your point of view, we need to work together so the government does not rely on cheap (free) labour to meet targets, whilst forging good relationships with those we work with. I hope this goes some way to explaining my viewpoint to you! Paramedics do an ace job, and we do look up to you you know!
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Post by Alison on May 6, 2009 14:35:53 GMT
I fully agree with Prontocab, he has fully valid reasons. We in Sussex are told we cannot have blue lights and, indeed, why would we wish to with all the responsibilities it carries? We have to drive under the Highway Code. Secondly, I have been somewhat concerned at some uniforms looking very much like the Ambulance Service. Our particular scheme is using the bright red and yellow hi-vis jacket and we actually desire this to be the recognised colour/uniform for all of Sussex. This sets us apart from SECAmb and also gives us very good visibility on dark streets, the woods etc. And the crew will recognise us and the villagers will get to know who we are. And when we explain to the confused relatives, they will hopefully be happy because we are not wearing a uniform.
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Post by sunnyali on May 6, 2009 14:42:56 GMT
Even when we are trained and can drive on blues we have to adhere to the highway code- it is not a ticket to drive like a loon! Yes, the uniform should stand out as being different. We have to wear as a minimum a high vis jacket, and boots, with our ID. The community does get to know who we are.
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Post by Ian Woodham on May 6, 2009 16:04:20 GMT
From my point of view I would not want the risk and responsibility of driving under blue lights, I have done the IAM advanced driver training which is invaluable, not I hasten to add to help me drive faster but to make me far more aware of what is going on around me. I find this useful when the adrenalin is flowing responding to a call
In our scheme (Hereford and Worcester) we respond in our own cars we do not use a pool liveried car. I would however like to be able show some visual indication (illuminated at night) when arriving on scene. People who have called 999 are looking out for, and waiting to flag down, an ambulance with blue flashing lights not a private car driven by someone in a yellow bib.
As far as uniform is concerned again I do not respond on a rota basis as part of a team like in some areas, I book on as and when and respond in normal clothes with an issue florri jacket or bib depending on the weather. I have green overalls for attending fund raising etc. and a white CFR T shirt I have purchased myself from the scheme.
Arriving at scene I always announce myself to casualty / relatives as what I am "a volunteer community first responder" mainly so that they don't feel short changed about not getting a "proper" ambulance and so that I can explain my limitations. During handover again i introduce myself as Ian CFR to the crew. Public awareness is not great mostly poeple do not have a clue about CFR's.
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Post by Waterfairy on May 6, 2009 16:36:48 GMT
Hi Prontocab,
I've ready your post and the others on the subject with great interest, and would like to offer my couple of bobs worth. I've been a responder in a small community for close on a year now and find the work very rewarding, as do my colleagues. On a personal level the last thing I want is a blue light or any kind of uniform that confuses me with a Paramedic, ECA, Tech or other medical professional. Those people do a fantastic job and from what we read in the press on a regular basis these days, need our support too.
To be fair the general consensus seems to be that it's a minority that want these things, not the majority. In my view they would be the beginning of the end for the CFR movement because ultimately the mere fact that blues & twos were part of our repertoire would attract the wrong sort of person. We need recruits who want to do something positive for our community, not a bunch of thrill seeking wannabees who sooner or later will kill someone and every CFR in the land will be tarred with the same brush. The day CFR's are authorised to drive under blues will be the day I leave!
Public awareness of what CFR's are, why they are there and what they seek to achieve is, in my mind, far more productive. We are beginning to be recognised and accepted as a sensible VOLUNTEER organisation who want to make a difference, often to people that we actually know. As we've become better known locally we've found that motorists often afford us a little leeway which is gratifying and appreciated. All we need is one plonker to go and ruin it all and we're back to square one. We have a very good relationship with the Paramedics and A&E crews in our area and I would hate to think that relationship was compromised by a few who, to use an old fashioned term, "have ideas above their station".
I was a firefighter before retirement and know from experience that blues & twos are often more of a hindrance than a help. Every new recruit found the siren/blues switches before they knew how to engage the pump! On every PR visit to the station, the first thing the kids (and most adults!) wanted was to find that same switch. So it's a fascination, and that's probably the underlying thread here.
Lets be CFR's, remember what we're here for and what we joined for, support the Ambulance Service and assist them in their job. There is a place for us all and if we work together in our place, life will be a whole lot sweeter. Let's get there quickly but safely without causing more casualties on the way
Bottom line from me. . . . It's not everyone that `craves`blues and all the other malarkey, in fact it's probably a small minority.
(PS If you're old enough to remember Starsky & Hutch, you must be as old as me!)
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Post by barossa on May 6, 2009 18:55:43 GMT
Thank you for your comments, Prontocab. I have seen numerous requests for for blues and twos and uniforms etc etc. I have done 30 years of blues & twos as a police officer and know the extra strain in driving when blatting through the roads. Perhaps because of that I find I am in two minds when attending a call, a sense of frustration of not being able to make progress and an internal voice telling me to calm down. Even blues & twos don't always help.
Our uniform is markedly different to the ambulance service (SECAmb) and is marked as Community First Responder. I always announce that I am a CFR and that the ambulance is on its way... A uniform and talking can help the panic to ease.
I do this job not for the politics (look at PCSOs and Special Constables) but because I may be able to make a change to someone's condition.
I am not certain if you are for or against the CFR, perhaps like the Specials, they are a necessary evil. There is one crap Special out there who spoils it for the hundreds who do a good job.
We were informed by SECAmb staff that with the qualifications needed for Ambulance staff now that the CFR is not a pathway to full time crew, otherwise I might have considered it. But then again I might be too old!!
Perhaps my past job is a good help to me now?
Ian
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Post by ambervalleycfr on May 6, 2009 21:05:57 GMT
Firstly, let me explain my position. I am both a CFR co-ordinator and a serving police officer. I am therefore a regular user of blue lights. In fact, when I first began responding, the Ambulance Service recognised my blue light driving qualification and I responded as a CFR with blue lights. Due to changes in the Service, the blue light driving has now been withdrawn. During my time as a blue light driver, I have witnessed how other road users react to blue lights and this is not always favourable. This has included me getting injured whilst on a blue light run due to a panicking motoring running a give-way sign. As a police officer, I do not enjoy driving on blue lights and never have done. It does not decrease response times by any significant degree despite what people may think, and no matter how good a blue light driver you are, every time you flick that 'switch', the risk of injury to you and others is high. When I am work, I am being paid to take this risk and is something I accept as part of my role. I certainly DO NOT want to be taking this risk in a volunteer capacity (ie, CFR). The whole principle behind the CFRs is they are responding in their own locality so should be close enough NOT to need blue lights. Any CFR that wants blue lights is like any police officer who wants to hold a gun... exactly the ones who shouldn't be.
As regards uniform, I do think that CFRs should have a uniform for reasons of professionalism and hygiene. However, I think that this should be CLEARLY identifiable as a CFR uniform (ie, NOT green!). Our CFRs wear blue all-in-one suits and are never confused for 'the real ambulance staff', but they do look extremely smart, professional and as mentioned by barossa, can help to relieve the stress of worried relatives without tricking them that we are more qualified than we are.
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Post by medatrain999 on May 6, 2009 21:39:26 GMT
Well... what a debate!!
As my profile mentions, I am a State Registered Paramedic. I have held other paramedic posts for some time including ambulance, rapid response cars, volunteer responding from home, management, control-trained and now helicopters!!! So, I am fairly experienced in the pre-hospital sector.
The point of CFR's 'craving' blue's n two's I feel is very unfair. A very small minority of the people I have worked with have thought that CFR's are going to take away their jobs a little like regular PC's thought of the Specials (I know because I was a Special too!). However, this is FAR from that. In fact, I think it is quite the opposite. The guys from my local CFR group have categorically said that they want to help patients and not take the role of ambulance staff. My personal opinion on blue lights etc is the same as ambervalleycfr... we are in the community and should not require flashing lights and a loud siren to get to our patients. As the administrator mentioned, we need to educate the public as to what EXACTLY a CFR is and not to give out blue's n two's willy-nilly.
Next, the uniform. From personal experience (of having a CFR to a family member), I think CFR's should have a uniform. The person that attended my relative was scruffy in just their jeans, a polo shirt and a hi-vis! A uniform (not green!!!) looks far more professional and, regardless of what anyone else says (personal opinion), DOES help with the whole karma of a job. Patients, and relatives / friends etc, do tend to calm down once their is a 'uniform' in the room. However, how do we identify a CFR? Again, I'm with ambervalleycfr. Blue boilersuits (or all-in-ones) do look good. There are no similar uniforms elsewhere (certainly in my area) with the exception of mechanics, but then the oil marks and 'mucky hands' give them away!!! LOL Maybe we should look at markings stating VOLUNTEER AMBULANCE RESPONDER or words to that effect?? Something to show that will inform the family immediately that 1) the CFR is not a 'real ambulance staff' and 2) with appropriate education, they will know that the volunteer CFR has a certain skill level.
Furthermore, there has been a conference recently to discuss a National Association for CFR's. Watch this forum for an update.
SO... where does that leave this topic?? Let's not have a dig at those who want to help but let's find a solution to the problem.
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Post by prontocab on May 6, 2009 21:40:31 GMT
Thanks for your replies and honesty. I'm not on here to start a flame war, just to actually get answers to burning questions. I don't actually see CFR's as doing my job without the training for free. The kind of Jobs CFR's get exposure to is a small percentage to the actual job i do. Very small. Patient care is a massive part of our work. Doing CPR in a moving Ambulance is not easy (I have the scars to prove it). Paramedics have to be a bit of everything. Social worker, Psychiatric Nurse, marriage guidance, dietician. The list goes on. When the office shuts, its the Ambulance service that picks up the slack. The initial reason, as i stated before, was for members of the community to respond under Heart-start schemes. Now politics aside (Remember that ORCON, the system in which the ambulance service is monitored, was started in the 1970's), the 8 minutes actually means very little. In realistic terms, that means the patient has a 10% chance of survival. Quick defibrillation is what makes a change, and that has to be done within two minutes for the patient to have a chance to return to a normal life. Thats if it works though. Ok, so thats why CFR schemes are an excellent idea, but the way some schemes are used is just covering up the glowing inadequacies some ambulance trusts are happy to operate under. Resources for ambulances have always been poor. Thats why some services call us cinderella. The poor relation (And last to the ball). In rural area's ( and i include country towns here) the need for blue lights is negated. Weight of traffic doesn't justify them at all. As some of the guys who have used Blue lights in their current or past jobs, they can be more of a hindrance. The sirens aren't much better. (you'd soon annoy your neighbours if you blat them on every time you go out on a call). Its a risk you don't need. Uniforms. Ok, i've seen reasoned arguement for their use. Being able to wash something in higher temperatures and not ruining your own clothes is a reasonable idea. However, why not buy plastic disposable aprons? If a NHS Amb trust had to stump up the money for either, i know what they'd buy for you. Now i didn't join the service to drive fast on blue lights, or pose in a uniform. I did it to make a difference. To give something to the community. I know the vast majority of you do this for the same reason. However, i often come across incidents on my travels, and always stop to offer my help and skills. I do this in my civies, and never once has my professionalism ever been questioned, or made my patient feeling nervous and unsure. Its how you carry yourself in front of your patient that conveys professionalism, not a coloured jump suit. (I'm not old enough to remember Starsky and Hutch originally. Just watch UK gold ) And as a post script, my partner is a CFR, who joined her local scheme after my encouragement. She craves not uniform or twinkly lights and a wailing electronic cat. Thats why i started the thread. Prontocab.
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Post by annandamide on May 6, 2009 22:12:00 GMT
I think I've made my opinions clear on the other threads about blue lights and uniform. Just to reiterate though, getting to where I need to be, usally within 5 miles of my home, (driving within boundries of the highway code), I can do in just a few minutes. This is usually way quicker than the ambulance can get there. As for uniform, High vis and huge kit bag seems enough to identify me as someone who has come to help along with my introduction as I enter the household. I have to admit to being a bit scruffy at times, namely 3 in the morning, when less than 10 mins earlier was deep in the land of nod! I'm not sure a boiler suit would rectify that! lol.
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Post by the welsh one on May 6, 2009 23:21:37 GMT
hello Prontocab
I am a cfr in london which is st john ambulance and London ambulance service, We have a uniform set out by sja and las. We have a good crew of paramedic team leaders who come and train us we are know buy many of the crews and we have our own borad in the stations so crews know us by face as our photos are posted.
Yes we wear green polo shirt with cfr on them and sja and las logos. hi vi with the same logos as polo shirts.
As for blue lights you can keep them. I am happy not to have them.
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Post by gosportcfr on May 7, 2009 14:47:16 GMT
I wear a bottle green polo shirt, I also have a bomber jacket and a hi viz jacket, all of which come from SCAS. They have SCAS insignia and NHS Logo, and are embroidered exactly the same way as crew shirts and are obviously identifiable as blonging to the Ambulance service. This is what we have been issued with by South Central Ambulance Service. We gave them the money, that's what they gave us. So far none of the local Paramedics have considered us to be pretending to be something we are not. We are not wannabes or walter mittys. We don't crave blue lights, or anything else that is not ours to have. We can volunteer to man the DRV car when ever we want, we can Observe on an appliance or in the RRV whenever we want, such is the close relationship we have with the local station and crews. If ever I thought someone genuinely thought I was making myself out to be something I am not, I don't think I would be able to continue as a CFR. Thank God the local crews don't think that. We are extremely gratefull for the support they have given our scheme.
the 3 CFR's here cover a geographically small town which is densly populated with a maze of roads and junctions and lights. We all feel frustrasted at times having to sit at lights, especially when the local situation here more often than not means we will be first on scene with backup some time away but we don't crave blues and 2's and are aware of the responsibilities etc that go with them.
Isn't this forum a place where we can express such frustration to those in similar situations who understand and may be able to offer advice? I have found this thread to be extremely discouraging on the whole.
My advise to all CFR's is to build a good relationship with your LOCAL station and crews. Let them know who you are. Seek advice on being a CFR from your own paramedics. Listen to them and accept there advice. Involve them in your training and meetings. If you do that, you can't go far wrong. They will soon tell you if what you are wearing or if your conduct is not acceptable. And they will give you the encouragment you need.
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Post by Admin on May 7, 2009 15:10:43 GMT
This is certainly turning out to be a great thread. Gosportcfr, thats a great post and you certainly hit the nail on the head with regards to the relationships between local crews and responders. However, I don't think that you should feel discouraged. In fact, I think you should feel the opposite.
Prontocab has his reasons to feel the way he does. However, reading the comments, everybody has posted very constructive comments and have provided genuine arguments from both sides of the fence without the thread turning into a slagging match. We even see a slight (slight!) change in opinion from Prontocab -
"Ok, i've seen reasoned arguement for their use. Being able to wash something in higher temperatures and not ruining your own clothes is a reasonable idea."
This is what we created the forum for, not to discourage people but to create a platform where Responders and even industry professionals can discuss their own views whilst at the same time, receiving the views from others across the country!
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